Ed Keable is the current superindendent of Grand Canyon National Park. He sits down with Brian with updates on the new and current projects below the rim. Enjoy Ed Keable!
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This episode of Big Adventures is brought to you by the patron saint of our show, Dave Wegner, with the following dedication to all the federal, state, and academic scientists who worked for the GSA's program and support the ongoing GC MRC effort. We built a culture dedicated to science and the Grand Canyon that will survive the current war on knowledge and integrity.
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AD READ
Thank you, Dave, for your support. And here's the show.
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Brian Dierker
This Brian Dierker big adventures with Ed Keable. Ed's got the enviable job of being the superintendent of drinking in National Park. And luckily, it's our second visit. Three years. Four years since our last visit. Yeah. And so I'm thrilled that we get a chance to find all the stuff out from you. But also, we're super interested in Grand Canyon.
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Brian Dierker
Both of us were dedicated to it. And having you here is a great honor.
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Ed Keable
So it's a pleasure being here, Brian.
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Brian Dierker
That being said, and I'd like to start out the whole conversation.
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Brian Dierker
How are you doing, my friend?
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Ed Keable
I'm doing grand. Thank you.
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Brian Dierker
And everybody in your world is good.
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Ed Keable
Everybody. Everybody's. Well, yes. Thank you.
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Brian Dierker
Well, you know the whole thing.
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Brian Dierker
It's a tight community, Grand Canyon. And, I've always appreciated your transparency. Is as far as your, superintendent position. And so, just to let you know that I can't help but ask how you're doing and how your world is. And we're 3 or 4 years past our first visit, and, I'm really excited just to hear how you're doing, what your enthusiasms are, what your challenges are, and stuff out of this conversation.
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Ed Keable
Well, so my enthusiasm, as you alluded to, is, is the canyon itself, right? I think I told the story in, in our last interview how I first came to the canyon and this, this random thought that I had that it would be, remarkable to live and work at the Grand Canyon. And 26 years later, I got the call to do just that.
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Ed Keable
The canyon gives me, comfort and and hope. Our indigenous neighbors, tell me that it's, it's a living place. It's a healing place. And and, and I think it is, you know, it's it's a pretty remarkable place.
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Brian Dierker
Well, and, you know, I, I have to apologize because I always want to know how that guy's doing. It's not, you know, you're ad you're not the superintendent because we're down home around here and stuff like that.
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Brian Dierker
Has your personal life, enjoyed and endured this new placement from Washington then and all that? I mean.
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Ed Keable
It has. I mean, it's it's not always been easy. So, know.
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Brian Dierker
I think, yeah.
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Ed Keable
My, my husband Scott still lives in Washington. You may remember, I may have told you otherwise. If not in the last podcast that, when we made the decision that I would assume the superintendent of the Grand Canyon, we made an understanding that he wouldn't move here. You know, he comes to the park every 4 to 6 weeks, for a week to ten days.
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Ed Keable
We vacation a couple of times a year. I go to Washington 2 or 3 times a year, and, and I like to joke with him that after 31 years, that's plenty of time to go real estate.
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Brian Dierker
Crazy.
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Ed Keable
But seriously, the the grandkids is a hard place to manage. It's a difficult job. Let me start over.
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Brian Dierker
No, we'll go ahead. And, for the listener, I have failed. I didn't turn my phone off, but would continue.
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Ed Keable
That's okay. I was saying that the grand Canyon is, to being the superintended. The Grand Canyon is a difficult job. And I just couldn't do this job without the tremendous support that Scott gives me. And and in fact, I, I appreciate his support so much. I've given him a title.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. You know, what did pot like you think of, all the titles given to the supporting actors in positions in the government? Pray tell. What's the title?
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Ed Keable
So you know how the president and I say it as the first lady of the United States Flotus. So he's is she's Flotus. So, I have, given Scott the title of the husband of the superintendent. So he's the hots.
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Brian Dierker
He's the.
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Ed Keable
Pope.
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Brian Dierker
Did he embrace that?
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Ed Keable
He personifies it.
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Brian Dierker
You're perfect there.
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Ed Keable
That.
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Brian Dierker
You did that well. Isn't that true? I mean, so many people. And you look at the history of whether it's presidents or great men or people in high positions. It's their partner that they have is always like under the hood there.
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Ed Keable
Yeah. Well, you understand it yourself, I know. I know your wife. Oh, yeah?
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. And believe me.
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Ed Keable
He's a force to be reckoned with.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah, we're talking the same language, but I think that respect is due, and, there's no way I would be having the fun doing what I do if it wasn't for a great partner, so.
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Ed Keable
Exactly right.
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Brian Dierker
I really respect your attitude. Not only around, a mate, but a partner.
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Ed Keable
Yeah. Appreciate that. Good.
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Brian Dierker
Last question to get this thing started. Are you having fun still?
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Ed Keable
I am having fun still. You know, I've loved every job I've ever had. From my first job as a bartender at age 18, when you could do that sort of thing in New York. Yeah. To, to this job. But this job is special. Because the place is special. And, I walk the South Rim Trail every day to go to work, both to remind myself of my responsibilities and to be inspired by the canyon.
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Ed Keable
And it never fails to inspire.
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Brian Dierker
When I'm in the same boat, you know, I'm an older boatman. People always ask you. I mean, I've been a little obsessive with my time down there, but I've been the luckiest man in the world, so. But it really is that element. If you're not there, you're not completely getting it. So those walks are a big deal. Yeah.
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Ed Keable
Right.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. That's good to hear it. You know, on our last visit, do you had all kinds of projects out in front of you and I think, I just listened to our interview, this morning. You know, prepping for this thing.
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Brian Dierker
And, you really gave a great interview. First of all, it's been, listened to substantially, but, you also really laid out kind of we talked a lot about your past and, you know, what got you here. So we won't go into a lot of that because we have the material. So, there's things I wanted to, address in this, catch up chat.
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Brian Dierker
And so, to start off, how is our water project on.
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Ed Keable
The track and what online is going extremely.
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Brian Dierker
Well.
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Ed Keable
We are two thirds into a three year project, and we are on budget. On schedule. So, that includes, work with some, facilities. Phantom Ranch? Yeah. Holding a water treatment plant on a Phantom ranch. And a water treatment plant on the South Rim. And, everything is on budget, on time. We've got a great contractor.
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Ed Keable
We've got a great team of, park and, Denver Service Center project managers who are monitoring the project. And, you know, I've had to make some difficult decisions, in order to move the project along, like closing Phantom Ranch, last winter, and some closing some trails. I've just extended some trail closures. And that, of course, has impacts on our visitors.
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Ed Keable
But, everybody seems to understand the need to do that, right? We we need to replace our water system. And so we've gotten great support from, the concessionaires. The Tara manages Phantom Ranch. And from our visitors, so, everything seems to be going really well.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. And the, for the listener, the long picture. Is this a real. I had equated water line that's been supplying South Rim and, and Phantom and, the long picture is infrastructure. You've got to do it eventually. Sure. Some of those closures, I think most people would expect.
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Ed Keable
Right. So, that necessity. Right. The, the part as is true throughout the the National Park Service and frankly, the federal government just didn't invest in infrastructure for 40 or 50 years. Yeah. But, through the great America Outdoors Act, we were able to tap into, funds for some of our infrastructure. This project, the park has been planning for for over ten years and has been banking gate revenues to fund this project.
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Ed Keable
But we've got other projects as well. And we can talk about some of those that the great actors act or what the Park Service is now referred to as the legacy Restoration Fund is funding. But for this project, the Trans Canyon Waterline was, built in the 1970s with us with a 20 with a 25 year shelf life.
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Ed Keable
So you can do the math. And, and the assumption was 2.5 million visitors, and we're at 5 million visitors. And before the pandemic, we're at 6.9 million or 6.4, one of the other. So the system is twice as old as it was designed to be, with twice the use that it was designed for.
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Brian Dierker
As city demand.
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Ed Keable
And it breaks multiple times a year, it's expensive to repair the brakes we have to fly people into. It's dangerous to oftentimes do the work that, are what are utilities team has to do to fix the breaches. And we've been able to, you know, invest in this resource with, with the savings of those funds, those funds, our gate receipts, and, and, hopefully will, have a cleaner, safer operation a couple of Septembers ago, I came very close to shutting down the park because we had so many serial breaches, through the late summer months, July and early August.
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Ed Keable
And, in fact, last summer, last September, because we had a series of breaches, I closed the park to overnight visitors for a week or so. And, and that's because the, the system just is constantly breaking, and the water in our tank farms drops if we're using the water and not replenishing it. And, you know, we have a, we have a, a level in the water tank farms that we need to support, structure, fire, programs in the park.
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Ed Keable
And if we pass that line, it's literally not safe to be in the park if there's a fire in one of our buildings. So, I closed, the the park for overnight visitors, and and, we finally were able to fix that, fix that breach and and restore overnight visitation. But those are the sorts of things that we hope to avoid, and expect to avoid with the new waterline system to the, to the south.
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Brian Dierker
Well, and I know what a huge priority the visitors experience is to to you and to the park system. So, yeah, those are tough decisions, but, decisions that have to be made. Right? That's a big deal, right? In regards, to the infrastructure up on the South Rim, isn't there also a hell of poured and, there's a lot of stuff stuck to this project.
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Brian Dierker
Right? It's, there's a lot of construction going on in a lot of different directions.
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Ed Keable
Yeah. There are. So we, you know, one project is I referred to earlier where we're building a new, water treatment plant on on the south Rim. We also are expanding our, a heliport. We do have a heliport. I like to joke, as a former army officer, I have an air force. I manage an air force and an a Navy.
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Ed Keable
I have two helicopters in a in a fixed wing plan. And of course, I have river operations, so. Right. So we're expanding the base and, and that has allowed us to support much larger helicopters, that are necessary to airlift large pieces of equipment into the canyon to support the water line project. And another thing that we've accomplished is, we have built a new electric substation, all of the, infrastructure that we're building, utilizing as much more electricity than the park was able to support.
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Ed Keable
With our legacy substation. We've quadrupled the capacity for electricity in the park. And that's an interesting project. We finished that last summer, three months ahead of schedule and on budget. And the three months ahead of schedule was particularly important because a lightning strike hit the line. And killed our legacy substation. And because we were ahead of schedule, we were we we we lost one minute of power instead of three months of power.
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Brian Dierker
That that is incredible. Yeah. The the unforeseen, Mother Nature element is always amazing. Is it really down there in this southwestern climate and stuff? And then do you have anything, what is your target date for completion? With this work that's going on right now? Or is this you? It's remarkable that it's under budget.
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Ed Keable
Under we're on budget and on schedule.
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Brian Dierker
On budget?
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Ed Keable
Yeah.
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Brian Dierker
So that's.
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Ed Keable
Remarkable. Yeah. Our our target date for completion is, October 26th. October 2026, not 2625.
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Brian Dierker
Right? Right. Was there have any confusion there?
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Ed Keable
Yeah, we're, we're about two, three, two thirds, through, a three year construction program.
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Brian Dierker
You know, and we're talking about water and the water line and stuff. It's a remarkable time in in the park, in regards to the river flows from Glen Canyon Dam and, and the whole, Colorado River treaty and all that. Can you share with us, what you've learned in the last three years as far as that, side of things?
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Brian Dierker
Sure. We're, it's a it's a very complicated question, but, yeah.
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Ed Keable
I spend anywhere between a quarter to a third of my time were dealing with water related issues. Yeah, at the Grand Canyon. In addition to being super attentive, the Grand Canyon National Park, I'm the chair of the National Park Service Colorado River steering committee, and I am also the National Park Service representative to the Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Working Group, which is, which is a committee chartered under the Federal Advisory Committee Act.
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Ed Keable
And so it includes federal agencies, states, tribes and other interests, recreational interests, hydropower interests and, and such. And and the goal of the of the working group is to provide advice to the secretary and on water releases from Glen Canyon Dam. So I have those three hats that I wear for, for river issues.
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Ed Keable
And, you know, so as a park superintendent, I'm responsible for managing fish species in the Colorado River, including the humpback chub, which is federally threatened. 95% of the humpback chub population in the world are in the Grand Canyon. There used to be a large population of humpbacks in the upper basin, so north of, Lake Powell and Lake Powell, and, and those that population was decimated by predatory fish, particularly the really super aggressive smallmouth bass, which is perhaps the most ill named fish in the world.
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Brian Dierker
Really.
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Ed Keable
It has really large mouths that have the capacity to swallow fish whole. And so I do a lot of work, including with, my, sister park unit just north of us, Glen Canyon Dam National Recreation Area. In fact, on the day that we're taping this, I just had a meeting with Glen Canyon staff and my staff and and regional staff about fish issues because, it continues to be a real problem there.
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Ed Keable
You know, as the water levels in Lake Powell have dropped humpback, sorry, smallmouth bass have managed to, pass through the turbines and, and survive. So there is a population of of smallmouth bass in the Glen Canyon rich area. And we've seen them as far as river mouth 30. There's evidence, at least through Edna, evidence of them through, as far as, river mouth 30.
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Ed Keable
So part of the work that I've done with, with the parks, rivers, Committee, the, the the steering committee is, a couple of years ago worked really hard to develop a comprehensive Park Service approach to, river policy on the Colorado River. And that's helped us to advocate better for, our collective interests. Some of us have different interests depending on where we are on the river.
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Ed Keable
Right. We've got, dams or national, park, in Wyoming, all the way down to Lake Mead. National Mercury recreation.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah, yeah, it's.
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Ed Keable
It's, there they're nine parks in the system on the river. And so we're we've really aligned our interests. Well, we're trying to support natural riverine processes as our number one priority. Right. The dams throughout the system, particularly Glen Canyon and and, Hoover Dam have really impacted the flow of the river. And so, that's one of our our top priority is to manage the rivers in a way that replicates as much as mechanically possible natural process.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. And with that, a more natural result occurring from the upper basin, clear through the system down to the lower basin.
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Ed Keable
That's right. I that's right. So there are lots of things that have happened as a result of, of the establishment of Glen Canyon Dam in the Colorado River. So we don't get, the movement of sediment, so beaches, deteriorate, on a, on a fairly regular basis. Right. So they we have a process in the system referred to as high flow experiments, which are supposed to push large amounts of water down river from the dam when there's sediment, sufficient sediment coming in from the Rio River.
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Ed Keable
So that pushes sand and rebuilds beaches. And that's important for not just recreational purposes, but cultural, purposes, because sand, when it dries, the wind can blow it up, up the canyon and cover, archeological resources, which is an important consideration for tribes because they don't. That's right. Our tribal partners don't want looting of their archeological resources or, other human interactions like graffiti and such, which can happen, and so they prefer their archeological resources to be covered by sand.
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Ed Keable
And, and when we're not replenishing the sand, the aerial process doesn't happen. And it exposes those resources, which requires responsibility for us to manage exposed resources. So there's that implication. There's the implication of water, flows on, the, the survival of the humpback chub. Right. Temperatures and and the, the, the existence of smallmouth bass and other predatory fish, which pose a threat to the humpback chub, and, of course, recreational interests and the health of beaches that's impacted also by vegetation and the encroachment of vegetation on beaches.
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Ed Keable
It's a it's a it's a complex eco structure which, I and my team are responsible to try to figure out how to manage as a result of what's happening with the water.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah, manage it at best. Another thing, I think, of course, being married to an archeologist and, we've done a lot of different stuff in regards to the sand, but I think the sand dunes just plain old, preserved those things where when they're exposed, then erosion takes its ugly course. And so it's a, it's a full for the full gamut of those sand losses and that lack of eolian transport.
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Brian Dierker
Right. Beaches.
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Ed Keable
Yeah. You know, it. People look at the Grand Canyon from the rim and they think it's been there like that for ever. And and the truth of the matter is it's constantly changing. Sure. And, and and it's, it's constantly changing in ways that are impacting, recreation, the environment. Cultural resources, human safety, and all of those implications.
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Ed Keable
And, and I'm responsible for managing to all of them.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. No, it's it's a bunch of balls in the air that need to be juggled as best you can. Right. It turned out to draw up one.
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Brian Dierker
Right.
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Brian Dierker
In regards to the Glen Canyon work. The the sediment is a real issue in the upper Lake Powell region because of these lower lake and the, the sediment is still coming, substantially from the upper basin and stuff like that.
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Ed Keable
Yeah. The same is true of, the the western end of the Grand Canyon with what's happening near, Hoover Dam. So sediment buildup.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah, I know it in spades because I'm down there enough to where those sandbars are really some big deal with sand.
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Ed Keable
Barela is a challenge to navigate.
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Brian Dierker
Yeah. Really? And, but, my my question being with these lower flows, and like, the lower lake, like, say we don't have dangling rope anymore. They had to completely move it. The sediment that's coming in and the lake level in regards to the dam operation, where are we, in in regards to the.
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Brian Dierker
Oh, it's here this terminology. Deadpool. Can you explain that a little bit? For the listeners?
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Ed Keable
Sure. So Deadpool in particular is the level of the lake at which, the lake gets to the to where the turbines are in the dam. And when you drop to Deadpool, you're not able to produce hydropower or pass water through the entryways that where the turbines are. There are, two bypass tubes below. What the the turbine levels are, and water would still pass through, but those those bypass tubes are not designed to be passing through the level of the the volume of water that.
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Ed Keable
Oh, yeah. That, that, the turbines are designed for. So if we get to Deadpool, a number of things happen. One is you don't produce hydropower anymore to is the volume of water passing through the dam into the Grand Canyon dramatically reduces? And that'll have, major repercussions, of course, at Grand Canyon National Park. The whole system was designed in the 1920s.
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Ed Keable
You referred to the the to the to the compact that, upper basin states in the lower basin states signed, I think, in 1922. And so the upper basin states are, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, the lower basin states are Arizona, Nevada and California. When the compact was was entered into in the 1920s, there was an assumption of of, 14 million acre feet.
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Ed Keable
There was available the people who, estimated the availability of 14 eight acre feet, million acre feet were, relying on a series of calculations based on really high hydrological years, which were actually not the actual average over longer periods of time. So there was an assumption of more water available in the system than there ever was.
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Brian Dierker
Possibly a little high.
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Ed Keable
Right, right. And, and, and since then, two things have happened. One is millions of people moved into the basin and started consuming water through municipal uses or agricultural uses. And, and particularly in this century, since the beginning of this century, we've been in drought. And, and in fact, scientists are no longer referring to what's happening in the Colorado River basin as drought.
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Ed Keable
They're referring to it as arid vacation because we've had so many years of reduced, precipitation and increased, temperature that the the soil is literally baking, it's hardening. And that's impacting the amount of water from snowmelt that's getting into the system to replenish the system every year while we're consuming more water. So that's why you see those bathtub rings at Lake Powell and Lake Mead.
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Ed Keable
Water consumption is increasing at a time when less water is available to the system. So two years.
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Brian Dierker
Ago.
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Ed Keable
A ratification. So two years ago, maybe this is three years ago now we had 95%, snowpack, but only 55% of it getting into the river system historically.
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Brian Dierker
It's interesting.
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Ed Keable
So so those are real challenges. So what's going on now is the Department of the interior is working with, upper basin states in the lower basin states to, negotiate lower allocation. So, the current allocations are 7 million acre feet of water for the upper basin and, and, 7 million acre feet for the lower basin.
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Ed Keable
For the last several years, the lower basin has been averaging a use of 9 million acre feet or more in the upper basin, less than that at less than 7 million acre feet. And so there are these really complex, really challenging conversations and negotiations between the upper basin states and lower basin states to reallocate lower water levels so that the the health of the river system can be sustained over time.
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Ed Keable
Right. Because it's it's never these interest to be able to have water both in the upper basin and the lower basin states, just not at the consumption levels that are there now.
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Brian Dierker
Exceeding the availability. Right, right.
00;27;55;08 - 00;28;23;14
Ed Keable
Yeah. So those are those are really hard conversations. And it impacts Grand Canyon and impacts hydropower and, and other interests because, this is an area where hydropower and grand Canyon National Park have really close alignment because we want water level, to be sufficiently high above, the, the Deadpool level. So up above the turbines, to be able to meet mutual needs.
00;28;23;14 - 00;28;48;17
Ed Keable
So hydropower is more efficient the more water there is above the dam because the pressure impacts the generation of electricity. So the closer you get to hydropower to to, Deadpool, the less efficient the mechanics of the production of hydroelectricity turbines. That's right. And the higher the water is over the, the the turbines, the colder the water is coming into the Grand Canyon.
00;28;48;17 - 00;29;27;03
Ed Keable
So that disadvantages, spawning for the invasive predatory fish that are coming through, the system. So, and the more reliability we have for the availability of high flow experience, which can push sediment down the river, rebuild beaches, so that we got increased recreation and increased aerial transportation to, to protect archeological resources. So there's a there's an interesting alignment because we have we have we haven't always been aligned with hydropower in terms of our interests with, managing water flows from Grand Canyon, Glen Canyon Dam.
00;29;27;03 - 00;29;35;05
Ed Keable
And so this alignment gives us an opportunity to, to really work together to support mutual interests, mutual interests.
00;29;35;07 - 00;30;04;16
Brian Dierker
And, it's it's two things really strike me. It's so interesting that the numbers you're at right now are, about half of what that compact was set at, right? That's pretty an interesting bit of math. But the other interesting thing to me about Deadpool is you'd never want to have to be two close to Deadpool, because that takes any adjustability out of the out of the picture, right?
00;30;04;18 - 00;30;07;09
Brian Dierker
Working with you don't have anything to work with.
00;30;07;12 - 00;30;48;07
Ed Keable
So. So for this year, for example, we were scheduled to have a high flow experiment this spring. But we we, along with the other members of the Adaptive Management Working group, made recommendations, through the, through the working group, not to do one because of, hydrological concerns and other concerns. So the less water you have behind Lake Powell, the less flexibility you have to manage, flows from Glen Canyon Dam for resource effects, the environmental impacts, the recreational impacts, the cultural resource impacts.
00;30;48;07 - 00;31;13;22
Ed Keable
Right. Congress passed a law in 1992 or 1994 called the Grand Canyon Protection Act. And it expressly says that reclamation should be managing flows from the grand, Glen Canyon Dam in order to support the environmental, recreational, cultural resource impacts at Grand Canyon. The less water you have behind the dam, the less flexibility you have to pass water in ways that support those.
00;31;13;22 - 00;31;15;09
Brian Dierker
To properly manage.
00;31;15;11 - 00;31;16;21
Ed Keable
That's right.
00;31;16;23 - 00;31;34;28
Brian Dierker
And you know, it also, doesn't it have, pretty remarkable effect on the lower reservoirs, like, I mean, if you're a Deadpool, what's going on down there? Right? I mean, so if you don't manage what you got above that.
00;31;35;01 - 00;32;02;04
Ed Keable
Right then and there is this there are some surprising impacts for the lakes as they approach Deadpool. Right. So more and more land is is exposed as the lake levels drop. That creates archeological resource impacts. It also creates, air pollution impacts because there's a lot more dust. You have to look at what's in the dust. Right.
00;32;02;26 - 00;32;07;12
Ed Keable
To determine whether or not what the health implications of all that.
00;32;07;15 - 00;32;08;25
Brian Dierker
Is in that sediment.
00;32;08;28 - 00;32;15;11
Ed Keable
That's right. So, yeah, it's it's all very complicated and interesting.
00;32;15;11 - 00;32;25;04
Brian Dierker
Yeah. And, how much in, in those conversations do you, get from the tribes input, the tribal input.
00;32;25;06 - 00;32;34;19
Ed Keable
So the tribes have five seats on the table for the Glen Canyon Dam adaptive manager working group. And so they're they're they're very engaged in that process.
00;32;34;19 - 00;32;41;04
Brian Dierker
Yeah. Because they've got a bunch of water issues all their own throughout this gigantic reservation.
00;32;41;04 - 00;33;09;12
Ed Keable
And then, of course, we have, we have, as a park. We have, responsibilities to manage government to government relationships with the 11 associated tribes. So, you know, the, well, a Pi tribe recently, got, a water rights settlement act passed by Congress. They're in the process now of planning for a, a system to draw water from the Colorado River.
00;33;10;09 - 00;33;12;24
Ed Keable
That has really complex, complicated.
00;33;12;26 - 00;33;14;12
Brian Dierker
That's right there.
00;33;14;26 - 00;33;48;02
Ed Keable
Because, as you know, because you're on the river a lot, we have, a boundary dispute with all of my tribe and their plans. Call them for, extracting water from the Colorado River. At Diamond Creek. And from the, well, perspective, they're drawing water from their territory from the park's perspective, based on a legal opinion from the Department of the interior, the river, the entirety of the river up to the high watermark, on the left bank is park property.
00;33;48;02 - 00;34;03;10
Ed Keable
So there's this active question right now with qualify whether or not in their implementation of the Water Rights Act Settlement act that they got passed a couple years ago, they will be impacting the park. And whether or not the park has a role in permitting.
00;34;04;04 - 00;34;05;25
Brian Dierker
There, that is an interesting one.
00;34;06;11 - 00;34;24;21
Ed Keable
Yeah. They're they're they're, infrastructure program. They of course, from a sovereignty perspective, don't believe the park has a role in permitting what they're doing or has any Nepa role in what they're doing. And so we're, we're we're trying to sort through that, you.
00;34;24;21 - 00;34;30;04
Brian Dierker
Know, now up to now, it wasn't there's something called, agreement to disagree on that boundary.
00;34;30;10 - 00;34;55;21
Ed Keable
So when I became superintendent, we, we even before I became superintendent, there has been this on and off again effort to, manage the relationship. We we engage in the process with Lake Mead mollify tribe in Grand Canyon called core process. It's CRT it's it and initially thought as an acronym. It turns out it's not an acronym, it's just core to the relationship of of those three entities.
00;34;55;24 - 00;35;24;01
Ed Keable
And we meet on a regular basis to talk about our mutual interests. And and after I became superintendent, I reaffirmed this perspective on the boundary that we will work with Walla pi with respect and that we will agree to disagree, and they will work with us on with respect. And we will we will work to disagree. We will agree to disagree about the boundary issue and just work to figure out how to co steward the area.
00;35;24;06 - 00;35;56;04
Brian Dierker
Yeah, that sounds sensible that, that that there should be a little bit of give and take and right. That's interesting. The whole water thing for the tribes is a real interesting, element because there really isn't a very available resource in so much of the tribal lands. It's a remarkable problem for them. And so you if it can be arrived at to improve their situation.
00;35;56;07 - 00;36;26;00
Ed Keable
Sure. Yeah. The Colorado River, is a central source of, water. And, you know, one of the as I understand it, one of the policy legal perspectives of the well of our tribe is, is they own up to the center of the river. And so that's water that they should have access to. And the and the law, the Hopi Indian Water Rights Settlement Act gives them the right to draw water from the river.
00;36;26;02 - 00;36;57;01
Ed Keable
The Navajo Nation is working to get, Water Rights Settlement Act passed through Congress. I'm in conversations now with, Havasupai tribe for water rights settlements. Their interests are groundwater related, which in Arizona is its own challenge. Yeah. So, yeah, the tribes have, multiple interests. And, and, you know, water rights is a really important interest because we are in, in northern Arizona, in the high desert.
00;36;57;01 - 00;37;00;11
Ed Keable
So there's a, not a lot of, of, readily available water.
00;37;00;14 - 00;37;19;16
Brian Dierker
And that and that brings us to the next interesting part of that conversation, of course, is the springs. The that how is that controlled by the, federal arrangement as far as who has that water. And. Right. Springs are interesting.
00;37;19;18 - 00;37;50;05
Ed Keable
Yeah. Springs are really interesting. So for for a number of reasons. First, springs are a harbinger of climate resilience. And so we have an interest in studying the springs to understand what's happening with the aquifer. But they're also culturally significant for tribes because, springs are a place where, tribal members for, hundreds of years would go, and live because there was available water.
00;37;50;15 - 00;38;18;04
Ed Keable
We also get a sense from springs through, studying Edna of what kind of animals? Visit springs and how frequently they visit springs. And of course, you can test, the water and springs for mineral resources like uranium. So we have, started to develop a really interesting program to monitor springs that we're working with, with the support of the Grand Canyon Conservancy.
00;38;18;18 - 00;38;50;15
Ed Keable
And, the U.S. Geological Survey and, possibly we're still in the works of working this detail out, but possibly with, NASA and the Defense Department, to contribute to, resources so we can monitor springs. So one of the one of the really interesting aspects of this plan that we're in the process of developing is working with, NASA to use satellites to study groundwater.
00;38;51;13 - 00;38;51;20
Brian Dierker
Oh.
00;38;51;27 - 00;39;36;11
Ed Keable
They have technology with their satellites where they can penetrate the ground and measure where water is. So, so we've got this integrated program that we're in the process of designing to, you know, send people out, whether it's our staff, whether it's tribal members who partner with us, whether it's visitors to the canyon that we empower in a citizen science context to, monitor springs that we identify of interest on a regular basis so we can collect data, and, and, and utilize the science of, of, satellites to understand groundwater inches so we can have a much better understanding of the hydrology, in and around the Grand Canyon.
00;39;36;11 - 00;39;43;08
Brian Dierker
That's huge. That's that's new technology that would make, hydrologists of past smelts, water.
00;39;43;09 - 00;39;54;27
Ed Keable
Yeah, yeah, that my my, my, geoscience team is, is not literally. But I was going to say they're salivating at the idea of understanding better what the hydrology.
00;39;54;29 - 00;39;55;06
Brian Dierker
Right.
00;39;55;08 - 00;39;56;10
Ed Keable
And yeah, exactly.
00;39;56;12 - 00;40;10;22
Brian Dierker
One thing I would add to having grown up, around the tribal elements, and back to Springs is there's a real spiritual connection, right? The tribes, feel about Springs.
00;40;10;24 - 00;40;35;21
Ed Keable
Yeah, I think that's right. And in fact, as we talk to tribes about partnering with us on this issue, some tribal representatives have expressed some anxiety about monitoring springs because of that spiritual element. And. Yeah, and so, some tribes may opt out, some tribes may opt in, but, you know, help us design protocols that are respectful of those interests.
00;40;35;21 - 00;40;55;04
Ed Keable
So we're at the early stages of this initiative, but it's a really exciting opportunity to both work with our tribal partners, but also to, develop scientific protocols that that may work to address those interests will.
00;40;55;04 - 00;40;58;18
Brian Dierker
And possibly preserve what's important to both sides.
00;40;58;18 - 00;40;58;25
Ed Keable
Right.
00;40;59;00 - 00;41;05;07
Brian Dierker
So right now that's great. And have you had Larry Stevens involved with your spring studies?
00;41;05;07 - 00;41;06;03
Ed Keable
So Larry's on.
00;41;06;03 - 00;41;07;16
Brian Dierker
Our. Oh, he's really dedicated.
00;41;07;16 - 00;41;21;06
Ed Keable
Yeah. Larry, Larry is super knowledgeable and and dedicated to this, and he's got a lot of, information. He has collected a lot of information about springs, and, I'm not sure we've reached out to him yet, but he's on our list of people to reach out to.
00;41;21;06 - 00;41;30;14
Brian Dierker
Yeah, he he'd be a great resource for you, for sure. Actually, Larry was the very first big adventure podcast. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was my first guest.
00;41;30;15 - 00;41;31;14
Ed Keable
Yeah, he's a great guy.
00;41;31;17 - 00;41;47;18
Brian Dierker
Yeah. And I'm, really, you know, we have mentioned that in our past, conversation that, there are these people out there that have dedicated their whole lives to the place, and, he's he's one of them.
00;41;47;18 - 00;42;12;08
Ed Keable
And that's one of the things I've learned as superintendent is the breadth and depth of experience that people who love the canyon have. And are committed to contributing to the park. I mean, yeah, I, I continue to be interested and it's just not something we've been able to leverage. Nearly as much as I would like to. But I'm really interested in continuing to explore the opportunities for expanding citizen science opportunities.
00;42;12;10 - 00;42;42;21
Ed Keable
Oh, in, in the park. I mean, you and I have talked about that when we're on the river. I've talked to, John Dylan, and, and others, the, the, the guides, training seminars about citizen science. There's just so much going on we haven't had, the, the capacity to focus on that, but I just had a conversation, yesterday with, with, a park employee about sort of redoubling our efforts to, establish a framework.
00;42;42;21 - 00;42;45;26
Ed Keable
Good. A good, solid framework for citizen science.
00;42;45;28 - 00;43;15;11
Brian Dierker
Well, I I'm a believer in it. I'm. I'm working with Steve Carruthers on the project, and, you know, he's looking at the, the upswing and propagation of the Canadian geese. And, it's been a tremendous, advantage for him. There's been some people that are on the river that have really made an effort to give him data as to sightings and such as that, and that's just a small example.
00;43;15;11 - 00;43;25;08
Ed Keable
But yeah, it's a great example. I grew up in the Canadian border in New York, and and my first river trip, I saw Canada geese on the river. I said, well, hello, how are you? Yeah, because.
00;43;25;11 - 00;43;56;19
Brian Dierker
And he's been doing this for about five years, but this data is really, it's pretty good strong, data. And, and we're getting, an increase, a pretty good curve in the upper canyon. And, there's some impacts on the Lake Mead area that are obviously confusing right now because there seems to be fewer sightings as far as pears and stuff down on the, on the lower part.
00;43;56;19 - 00;44;20;02
Brian Dierker
But we seem to have this pretty consistent increase as we work our way up the canyon as far as nests and pears and such. But, there's a lot of different projects, that have really benefited from the, the community getting involved with the data collection and stuff. Ted Kennedy is right. There is another good example. Right.
00;44;20;05 - 00;44;46;21
Brian Dierker
That's great stuff. Let's jump over a little bit to the recreational, side of things and, not so much, question about the you know, it's pretty established. We've got a ceiling and a certain volume of use of river, permits, because when I run down the river, I'm seeing people in the backcountry where you never used to see them and stuff.
00;44;46;21 - 00;45;14;00
Brian Dierker
And I was, wanting to ask you what. What, your perspective on the backcountry use, increase in impact? Yes, because I do. I'm a little concerned about the impact. And and from the safety point, you know, we've helped a bunch of hikers out additional through the years. And what's your perspective on the backcountry use?
00;45;14;02 - 00;45;36;08
Ed Keable
Yeah, that's a really good question. So we have a draft backcountry management plan. It's been draft for maybe two decades. And I guess my perspective is, part of our mission. We have a dual mission in national parks. You know, first half of the mission is to preserve the resource. And the second is to make it available to our visitors now and into the future.
00;45;36;08 - 00;46;08;02
Ed Keable
And sometimes those missions, those dual mission scenes seem in conflict. And, and the purpose of the backcountry information plan is to figure out how to strike the right balance between those two interests in a place that is, supposed to be, pristine. Right. You know, we had we also managed to wilderness and, and, that's, that's a, an impact as well with the more people you have, in those areas.
00;46;10;04 - 00;46;38;24
Ed Keable
You know, it calls into question whether, you know, whether or not and how we're managing to wellness. So, the conversation I referred to a minute ago was about reestablishing a wilderness program in the park. We had a wilderness coordinator who retired two years ago, and he hasn't been replaced. And so we're looking at how to, re, reconsider the management of the wilderness portion of Grand Canyon National Park.
00;46;39;09 - 00;47;06;08
Ed Keable
And I'm signing it. I guess I can announce it here as news. Matt Jenkins, whom I think, you know, you know, as, as, the responsible official in the park to coordinate wilderness matters. And so, in my meeting with Matt yesterday, just yesterday, we, we talked about these sorts of things and figuring out how do we properly strike that balance.
00;47;06;08 - 00;47;29;13
Ed Keable
And so, we're going to be redoubling our efforts to figure that out. I will tell you that you know, as, as as we've managed the park with, the staffing levels we've had, you know, Mike Kearsley retired as the wilderness coordinator two years ago. We haven't replaced him. Those kinds of staffing challenges force us to be innovative in our management.
00;47;29;16 - 00;47;29;25
Brian Dierker
Yeah.
00;47;29;29 - 00;48;02;07
Ed Keable
No. Agreed. So this is this is this is an effort at innovation and management. We're sort of doing wilderness by committee. Now, and Matt is extremely passionate about wilderness. He's very knowledgeable about wilderness. And, and, and there are a number of people who, who have these passions and interests in the park. And so we're going to try to, leverage, the knowledge and experience and passions that people have to, to refocus our attention on these kinds of issues.
00;48;02;19 - 00;48;35;20
Brian Dierker
And, you know, if you look back at the history of all parks is whether it's, building the new road, in Glacier National Park or if it's, putting a, ceiling on the amount of people that can do river trips. It just kind of follows suit that the double edged sword is you want, to make available the parks for everybody, but there's has to be a balance of how many people can be there at a certain time.
00;48;35;21 - 00;48;37;10
Brian Dierker
Right. You have to understand vehicle.
00;48;37;12 - 00;49;05;29
Ed Keable
Yeah. You have to understand the impacts of visitation on the resource. And, and, and you put your finger on a really important consideration, which is the safety element. And how do you, support people who are in wilderness? I mean, we're fortunate at Grand Canyon that, the river community, both, the commercial and the private river voters and the administrative, trips that we send are an availability to provide some people with support.
00;49;05;29 - 00;49;16;27
Ed Keable
Right. And, and, and, the commercial guides that I know, and many of the private boaters that I've been on the river tell me stories about how they rescued people.
00;49;17;03 - 00;49;17;16
Brian Dierker
Oh, yeah.
00;49;17;29 - 00;49;22;07
Ed Keable
Over time and and that's, a great partnership that we have.
00;49;22;09 - 00;49;32;20
Brian Dierker
Well, well, the that's a community. Grand Canyon community. Great. You've always been able to count on. Right. And so you don't want to, take away that element.
00;49;32;22 - 00;49;34;26
Ed Keable
But you don't want to tax it unnecessarily either.
00;49;34;28 - 00;49;51;14
Brian Dierker
But you don't want to tax. And so so that's a work in progress. Yeah. And but the the demand is really increased incredibly in the last in my, simple observation, it's really increased dramatically in the last five years.
00;49;51;18 - 00;50;06;08
Ed Keable
It's increased through my superintendency. Right. So I've been there for, I've been in the park for five years now, and, and, the pandemic, there's one of the impacts of the pandemic is people felt the need to get out into the outdoors.
00;50;06;08 - 00;50;36;03
Brian Dierker
And. Yeah. And we saw that just immediate pulse. We saw it with bookings on river trips. We saw it with privates. We saw it with backcountry. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that seems there seems to be a little hangover with that. Like, I know that the bookings are down with the commercial river outfits. They're down. And I think that's possibly a hangover from people kind of spend all their money to get out there, and now they're drug.
00;50;36;13 - 00;50;45;14
Brian Dierker
They don't have the same situation that they had when that, impact followed the pandemic. That was a remarkable time.
00;50;45;19 - 00;50;46;12
Ed Keable
Yeah.
00;50;46;14 - 00;51;07;12
Brian Dierker
The next question, since we're on the subject, you've been here since even since our last conversation. I want to ask you about some of the, highlights adventures you've been on in Grand Canyon since I last talked to you. There's, you've had a busy time, and I'd.
00;51;07;15 - 00;51;17;12
Ed Keable
Yeah. So I've spent actually a lot of time on the river. I remember, I was on a trip, a couple of years ago, and and so adoring, approaching. And there you were right. Your dory. Yeah. It was.
00;51;17;12 - 00;51;17;24
Brian Dierker
Great.
00;51;18;00 - 00;51;18;08
Ed Keable
Yeah.
00;51;18;08 - 00;51;20;11
Brian Dierker
It's great seeing you there. Yeah.
00;51;21;03 - 00;51;47;18
Ed Keable
Yeah. So I work on, being in the park, and whether it's working with staff to clear trails or, you know, I've done things like clean restrooms and and done, geoscience work, like, figuring out where fossils are in the, in, in the park. And I've hiked into Roaring Springs Cave, to, do some, monitoring of its canals there.
00;51;47;20 - 00;51;48;21
Ed Keable
It's very cool.
00;51;48;27 - 00;51;49;16
Brian Dierker
Yeah.
00;51;49;19 - 00;51;51;15
Brian Dierker
Oh, scary going in.
00;51;51;17 - 00;52;04;11
Ed Keable
It's cool. Yeah. There's some there's some creeks and crevices. Crevices where you have to crawl in your belly to get into and one of the rooms, or you have to sort of shimmy between little rocks and then the walls. Yeah. Right. Right, right, right. And yeah.
00;52;04;11 - 00;52;04;24
Brian Dierker
No, that's.
00;52;04;26 - 00;52;32;20
Ed Keable
That's, that's above you. Yeah. It's, it's a really cool place. And, of course, I've spent a lot of time in the, on the North Rim, and, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's it's important for me as superintendent to be in the park, you know, and being with staff to see what their work experience is and, and, and it helps me understand how I can support them.
00;52;33;02 - 00;52;52;22
Ed Keable
As a superintendent, I've been in the I've been in the river with your wife. In fact, my first river trip was with Jen, and monitoring cultural resources. So I've done just all sorts of things that are great. I mentioned my Air Force, earlier. I've. I've flown over the park in the fixed wing plane, in the helicopter multiple times.
00;52;52;22 - 00;53;01;21
Ed Keable
And you really get a sense when you fly over the park just how complex an ecosystem it is, how.
00;53;01;21 - 00;53;10;14
Brian Dierker
Faceted it is. Isn't it remarkable where you get low elevation air time over that place? Right. It is a remarkable impact.
00;53;10;14 - 00;53;38;08
Ed Keable
Right. But I also just spend a lot of time with staff and administration. I mean, we've done what I'm going to describe as very innovative work, rethinking how the park operates. Right? A lot of people don't think of parks in terms of a business, but, you know, I have a $100 million budget. I manage. And one of the things one of the really important things that I've done is I've centralized our budget function.
00;53;38;10 - 00;53;57;23
Ed Keable
When I got to the park, each of the operating divisions manage their own budgets, and when I asked a budget question I would take it would take, my controller like two days to get me response because she didn't manage most of the budget. And and so I centralized our budget. And I'm now making I'm making decisions on how to manage park the park holistically.
00;53;57;23 - 00;54;28;17
Ed Keable
And another thing I did is, is, I created an an internal controls program. I have a one employee, who's a dedicated position, just doing internal audits of the park to make sure that we are complying with law, regulation and policy. And there's not another park in the system that that does that. But I feel a responsibility to the American people to make sure that I'm managing the hundred million dollars that I'm entrusted to manage, consistent with law, regulation and policy.
00;54;28;17 - 00;54;32;18
Ed Keable
Maybe that's because I'm a lawyer, and I used to do that work at the Department of Interior.
00;54;33;01 - 00;54;54;00
Brian Dierker
But I could see how, beneficial that would be. As multifaceted as as this park. Yes. Yeah. If you really look at the, the, combination of, of, resident uses and, transient uses of visitor usage, it's remarkable.
00;54;54;02 - 00;55;15;29
Ed Keable
Yeah. At the risk of, at the risk of, of, boring your listeners about the details of managing a park. Another thing that we're doing, I think, which is really important, and I don't think many parks do, is we launched over a year ago now, a workforce planning process that's designed to identify exactly where work is being done, who's doing it, how they're doing it.
00;55;16;15 - 00;55;38;06
Ed Keable
And, it's it's helping us set up a structure in which we can start making decisions on the parks organizations to create efficiencies, to identify workflows that are easier, to identify what work maybe we don't do with the resources we have with the employee resources we have, and to, maybe reorganize the department to create further efficiencies.
00;55;38;06 - 00;56;11;09
Ed Keable
As an example, we're in conversations right now about centralizing our administrative support functions. And, and we've come up with a plan that we think will create better career promotion potential for administrative support staff, while reducing positions and saving somewhere in the neighborhood of $177,000 a year. And improve administrative support services throughout the park. So it's those kinds of things that I think a lot of people don't think about in terms of managing about a park, especially a complex park like Grand Canyon.
00;56;11;09 - 00;56;13;26
Brian Dierker
Those business elements have to be really key.
00;56;13;26 - 00;56;33;12
Ed Keable
They they are they're important and oftentimes are neglected. But, but I spend a lot of my time trying to figure out how to manage the resources of the park. That includes the the employee resources, because the employees are, as is often said, the most important resource we have. Right. You can't I can't manage the Grand Canyon National Park with them.
00;56;33;13 - 00;56;57;16
Ed Keable
Without employees, the employees need to have a work environment that is, that is, supportive of them. So there are all these aspects of managing the park, whether it's budget or whether it's internal controls or whether it's workforce planning that are important business components that that I'm focusing on to make sure that Grand Canyon National Park is really well run.
00;56;57;18 - 00;57;26;11
Brian Dierker
Well. And if you don't mind my segueing that into the challenges of reason, and, just have you felt, the impacts of some of these, more recent policies coming from the Washington and the government side? Have you felt it as dramatically as I know, some other agencies have felt it in spades. But, not to get too deep in the weeds with that.
00;57;26;11 - 00;57;34;10
Brian Dierker
Of course I want to get you in trouble. But, what have you got for us in in regards to dog and all that stuff?
00;57;34;12 - 00;58;23;29
Ed Keable
Sure. Well, I'll say I'll say a few things. So first, I am we are at Grand Canyon National Park. Federal employees. We are. It is our responsibility to follow the direction of the administration, that the American people elect. Yeah. Of course. And so we're doing that. And so we have had impacts, right. So the administration has, announced a number of personnel management, actions, whether it's, rescissions of offer letters of people who were hired to come into this park, other parks, other federal land units, there were voluntary early retirement authorities and, and, and a program called, deferred resignation, which allows people to,
00;58;24;07 - 00;58;49;08
Ed Keable
stop working but get paid for a period of time. Right. So there are a number of these, these personnel management actions that have been applied across government, and certainly that includes Grand Canyon National Park. So we have lost staff as a result of that. Those, those policies. But I think that the work we've been doing, particularly around workforce planning, has set us up for managing to those reductions in staff.
00;58;49;14 - 00;58;50;28
Brian Dierker
Because I look.
00;58;51;00 - 00;58;52;13
Ed Keable
Great, we we.
00;58;52;13 - 00;58;53;06
Brian Dierker
Have a.
00;58;53;08 - 00;59;11;02
Ed Keable
Right, we have a we have a really good idea of where the work is being done and how we can create efficiencies and how we can adjust to meet the staffing levels that we have. So I think we're we're actually in a reasonably good place. I mean, you ask any federal manager, they'll tell you that they're resource starved.
00;59;11;15 - 00;59;33;08
Ed Keable
And I would I would tell you that, I could use more staff, but my job is to manage Grand Canyon National Park with the resources that we are, authorized. And and so we're doing these things centralized budget, internal controls, workforce planning, so that we're able to, follow the directions of, of, our leadership in Washington.
00;59;33;08 - 00;59;51;10
Ed Keable
And, and my expectation is we will continue to manage the park and meet the needs of, of the our visitors. We'll make some adjustments in order to do that. And, we'll we'll, Ranger on as we.
00;59;51;13 - 01;00;08;08
Brian Dierker
Ranger on, but, that that really makes sense that, of course, your job is to make adjustments. But it sounds like you're already on the track to the long haul. The, the big picture long haul.
01;00;08;08 - 01;00;08;16
Ed Keable
Right.
01;00;08;21 - 01;00;11;13
Brian Dierker
And so that's why it, I brought it up.
01;00;11;14 - 01;00;37;01
Ed Keable
Yeah, I, I, I tell my staff, perhaps some of them are tired of you saying this, but I suffer from eternal optimism. My responsibility is to manage the park, whatever the challenges are of managing the park, and. But I'm. And I look for opportunity. So we've been planning these different management practices that I've described earlier, that are helping us to manage, in the current, environment.
01;00;37;23 - 01;01;15;25
Ed Keable
But this is also an opportunity for us to reimagine Grand Canyon National Park and the National Park Service. Right. If we are going to have, consistently, perpetually fewer staff, how do we manage to that environment? Right. How do we can we reorganize the park with different organizational structures that are perhaps more efficient? So writ large in the National Park Service, those, those discussions are happening to, you know, we have an organization that has, a large staff in our Washington office, large staffs and our regional offices and, and then park staff.
01;01;15;27 - 01;01;42;28
Ed Keable
And, we will engage in a conversation at the, at the park level about how do we realign, the organization of the National Park Service to meet reduced staffing levels in the Washington office and regional offices, as well as parks. And that might give us opportunities to flatten the organization. So there's arguably, you know, at least from some perspective, what some people would say is less bureaucracy.
01;01;43;13 - 01;01;50;12
Ed Keable
And, I think those are interesting academic questions that are becoming really practical questions.
01;01;50;14 - 01;01;54;00
Brian Dierker
And certainly challenging ones. Sure. Certainly challenge.
01;01;54;01 - 01;02;03;05
Ed Keable
But that's why you have leadership, leaders. Leaders, to my mind, need to rise up to challenges. And, and that's our responsibility.
01;02;03;10 - 01;02;19;20
Brian Dierker
Well, and, it's not like it's a factory to where you can automate in. So many different directions, but in indeed, probably there is a certain amount of technology and automation that can improve small elements within the park, for sure.
01;02;19;21 - 01;02;30;20
Ed Keable
Yeah. And those are some of the things that we're looking at. I mean, can we use, I for example, to create efficiencies, work workflow efficiencies work.
01;02;31;05 - 01;02;31;21
Brian Dierker
Well, there are some.
01;02;31;25 - 01;03;00;27
Ed Keable
Some work tasks. I mentioned earlier the use of satellite technology to study hydrology, below the surface of the Earth. Those are, those are things that, I mean, if we if we if we can use satellite technology to do the work of what would otherwise have taken a number of hydrologists with other tools that we have, I think we greatly increase our capacity to acquire knowledge with which to manage.
01;03;01;00 - 01;03;02;15
Ed Keable
Yeah. So.
01;03;02;28 - 01;03;37;19
Brian Dierker
Back to I've got just the only a couple more questions, in regard. One of them is in regards to the above leaves ferry, fishery and I actually electric shocked have been involved a little bit with, smallmouth bass issue. Just for the clarification to the interested listeners that, have been out there, do you have information for us about the slew construction to get rid of the -11.
01;03;37;19 - 01;03;39;03
Ed Keable
Mile,
01;03;39;05 - 01;04;12;04
Brian Dierker
Pure Harbor? And basically, for the listener, there's a, island up there, and then the behind the island. It's not a true island. But there's a backwater there that is prime prime spawning grounds for this invasive species. So the whole, my understanding is the the whole project would take away that dead water by running water through it, I mean, and digging out, above the island, so to speak.
01;04;12;04 - 01;04;16;16
Brian Dierker
Yeah. It's an island that high water at low water to sluice all so. Yeah.
01;04;16;19 - 01;04;37;12
Ed Keable
Yeah. So so I think that's right. So it's really a sandbar, which, you know, there's, there's some disagreement about it, but I think scientists generally understand that this sand but this large sandbar was created by flows from Glen Canyon Dam. And as it was created.
01;04;37;14 - 01;04;38;25
Brian Dierker
From the construction.
01;04;38;27 - 01;04;44;25
Ed Keable
And know from the the flows of pushing sediment down after the dam was, was established.
01;04;44;25 - 01;04;46;08
Brian Dierker
Oh, I see that.
01;04;46;19 - 01;04;54;29
Ed Keable
There's the general consensus with scientists is that that sandbar didn't exist to the extent that it exists now before dam, before the dam. Well that's.
01;04;54;29 - 01;04;55;11
Brian Dierker
Interesting.
01;04;55;25 - 01;05;20;16
Ed Keable
And so, so as you point out, when, you know, at high water, it looks like an island, when when at low water, it there's, there's there there are land, bridges. And, and that's created some backwater areas where, fish spawn because the water is at the right temperature for them to spawn. So they found it and they've and that's where they spawn.
01;05;20;16 - 01;05;28;11
Ed Keable
And that's happening with smallmouth bass. And so we have in the last few years, electro electric fish there.
01;05;28;14 - 01;05;29;04
Brian Dierker
That often.
01;05;29;06 - 01;05;58;20
Ed Keable
Or used rotenone, which is in Riverside to, to kill fish or who were there to spawn, which is problematic from an indigenous perspective because, particularly Zuni tribe have a religious belief that they are related to aquatic species in the river. And so where we were when we kill, when we take fish, that's a that's a culturally significant negative action of so and so.
01;05;58;22 - 01;05;58;28
Brian Dierker
We're.
01;05;58;28 - 01;06;22;04
Ed Keable
Trying to manage that area. So we're not taking fish. And one of the ways we're doing that is we're dredging that that area between the sandbar and the riverbank, so that there's a natural flow of water through there. So we actually are working with reclamation right now. Our sister park, unit, Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, is working with them.
01;06;22;21 - 01;06;49;08
Ed Keable
And there are heavy equipment on the sandbar dredging that area between the sandbar and the, in the bank. As we speak. And we hope to be done with that project in the next few weeks so that, the, the cold, the, the running water and that cold temperature of the running water will disadvantage all of that. All of that spawning area.
01;06;49;09 - 01;06;58;14
Brian Dierker
Yeah. That's great. That's, I haven't been out there since they started the work there. So it's, it's interesting to get an update on that.
01;06;58;17 - 01;06;59;09
Ed Keable
Yeah.
01;06;59;11 - 01;07;12;16
Brian Dierker
But it certainly makes sense because if you look at most of the, geomorphology up there, that is the, a primary harbor, for spawning, right?
01;07;12;23 - 01;07;29;02
Ed Keable
Yeah. And the spawning is, is really important because the that's what again, this is where the smallmouth bass have it's one of the places where they have spawn, the predominant place, I believe, where they have been spawning in the Glen Canyon Reach area. And if we can eliminate that, that'll go a long way towards protecting the humpback chub.
01;07;29;11 - 01;07;57;26
Ed Keable
Another tool that we're using, is a tool that we started utilizing last year. It's called Cool mix. We're using the bypass tubes to introduce cold water right to the river. And we've. Last year, we introduced cold water through those bypass tubes all the way to river mile 61. Because we've seen some indication that smallmouth bass have been down the river as far as river mile 61.
01;07;57;28 - 01;08;24;28
Ed Keable
So we're we're we're we're we're monitoring the river for those kinds of efforts to, to find out where the smallmouth bass are, because where the, the park Service and, and Fish and Wildlife Service and others are interested in continuing to use cool mix to control the temperatures to disadvantage smallmouth bass spawning, as a means to stem the the invasion of those fish into the Grand Canyon.
01;08;24;28 - 01;08;49;02
Ed Keable
Because, as I said, if if we lose the invasion, we run the risk of losing the humpback chub, 95% of whom are live in the Grand Canyon, that that would trigger all sorts of Endangered Species Act management challenges, both for the park and for, the the use of, flows of water through the Grand Canyon Dam, which could have adverse impacts on hydraulic hydropower, not.
01;08;49;02 - 01;08;50;18
Brian Dierker
To mention some other real.
01;08;50;18 - 01;08;51;09
Ed Keable
Recreational.
01;08;51;09 - 01;08;57;00
Brian Dierker
Interests, and also some real close, other native species that suckers.
01;08;57;00 - 01;08;59;11
Ed Keable
Right, right. How does.
01;08;59;11 - 01;09;00;05
Brian Dierker
The cool.
01;09;00;08 - 01;09;30;10
Ed Keable
Work? So the the the comic's actual mechanism. Yeah. So I mentioned earlier the bypass tubes which are lower in the dam than the turbines, are the water. The lower you get in the water, the colder the water is. So if you release water from the lower bypass tubes, that chills the water that's coming into the river. Right. So, that that will chill the river sufficiently if you if you send enough water through long enough, it'll chill the water sufficiently.
01;09;30;10 - 01;09;33;20
Ed Keable
That'll it'll disadvantage spawning.
01;09;33;22 - 01;09;38;10
Brian Dierker
And, you know, a couple years ago the water was so.
01;09;38;10 - 01;09;39;17
Ed Keable
Warm.
01;09;39;19 - 01;09;48;16
Brian Dierker
Generally. Yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you what, as a river runner, it was too warm. Yeah, sure. And, so that that's a benefit recreation.
01;09;48;19 - 01;10;08;16
Ed Keable
I, I, my first river trip, I, I couldn't, you know, when I tried to bathe eventually. Right, right. You're in the river for 8 or 9 days. You have to bathe eventually. So, I, in order to bathe, I would jump in the water and jump out and lather up and jump in the water.
01;10;08;16 - 01;10;10;16
Brian Dierker
And that's what we all do.
01;10;10;18 - 01;10;16;11
Ed Keable
Yeah, right. And but but, a year and a half ago, I sat in the water for 20 minutes.
01;10;16;11 - 01;10;16;28
Brian Dierker
And begged.
01;10;17;00 - 01;10;17;14
Ed Keable
And they.
01;10;17;15 - 01;10;19;12
Brian Dierker
Said, yeah, you know, it was it was.
01;10;19;12 - 01;10;23;02
Ed Keable
Just it was just so unnatural.
01;10;23;04 - 01;10;25;08
Brian Dierker
Yeah. Well, really, from a.
01;10;25;08 - 01;10;26;07
Ed Keable
River perspective.
01;10;26;14 - 01;10;37;28
Brian Dierker
You. Yeah, it it was. But, the benefit of the cold water is remarkable as well. If when it's 120 degrees.
01;10;37;28 - 01;10;54;16
Ed Keable
Well, sure. Well there's that, but also, I mean, you spend a lot of time on the river. The warmer the water gets, the harder it is to maintain your food safety. Right? Because you rely on the cold water to keep the, the, the temperatures of your food at safe levels.
01;10;54;17 - 01;10;56;25
Brian Dierker
Not to mention your canned beverages.
01;10;56;25 - 01;11;06;14
Ed Keable
Right. Well, I'm I'm on, I'm on, and National Park Service, we don't drink alcohol on the river, but, so I'm less interested in the can beverages.
01;11;06;19 - 01;11;30;15
Brian Dierker
Of course you are. That's a good answer. And, it's a terrible thing, but it's a good answer. Well, well, with that, I have to thank you for, for getting over here and doing a follow up, from our initial visit. Fantastic. The combination of really getting to know you in that first visit and seeing where we're at, in the park and.
01;11;30;15 - 01;11;31;13
Brian Dierker
And your life.
01;11;31;16 - 01;11;37;11
Ed Keable
Yeah. Well, a lot has happened in the park since our last interview, and I'm happy to share it with you and your listeners.
01;11;37;11 - 01;11;40;02
Brian Dierker
Yeah, it was more than excited to catch up with.
01;11;40;11 - 01;11;40;19
Ed Keable
Yeah.
01;11;41;04 - 01;12;08;03
Brian Dierker
And, you know, for the listeners, you guys, keep your boat right side up and, do what you can for the environment. There's all kinds of small things that we can do to, you know, at least help it along the way and help protect the environment. This is big adventures with Ed Keeble and Brian Durkee signing up.
01;12;08;05 - 01;12;29;08
Brian Dierker
Big adventures is produced by Brian Dierker, Margaret Knight and me, Gavin Buckner. Bill LeClaire and his mandolin provide our music. If you like our show, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.